Leaders on Leadership featuring Deborah F. Stanley, President of the State University of New York at Oswego

Episode Transcript

Jay Lemons:

Hello, and thank you for listening. I’m Jay Lemons. Welcome to Leaders on Leadership brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute. The purpose of our podcast is to share the stories of the people and forces that have shaped leaders in higher education and learn more about their thoughts on leadership in the academy.

I’m really delighted and thrilled to be joined today by Deborah Stanley. Deborah’s the President at the State University of New York at Oswego known better locally as Oswego or SUNY Oswego. It’s a post that she has held for 26 years at an institution that she has served more than 40 years. What an experience, what a run. A couple of words about Deborah, and then we will ask her to reflect on that.

She earned her bachelor’s and juris doctorate degree from Syracuse University and began her academic and teaching career at SUNY Oswego in the School of Business. Prior to serving as president, Deborah served as Vice President for Academic Affairs and Provost and then interim president before being appointed fully to the presidency in 1997.

Boy, after a long and successful career, Deborah announced earlier this year that she’ll retire at the end of December. She is well known to all of us at Academic Search. She serves as the chair of AALI, the American Academic Leadership Institute, and she’s a vice-chair of the Academic Search board.

More than that, I would tell you that I’m grateful that my very first search at Academic Search was one chaired by Deborah Stanley, then the chair of the AASCU board, that yielded Millie García becoming the successor to Muriel Howard. I learned a lot from Deborah. I picked up some tools of the trade that I am continuing to use to this day.

Deborah, what a joy it’s been, frankly, to have known you at the beginning of your presidency in my final years in an AASCU presidency, and then to have had this opportunity to work with you both through AASCU and through AALI and Academic Search. You and Michael have had an enormous impact on your part of the state and especially on SUNY Oswego. So welcome to you.

Deborah Stanley:

Thank you. Thank you so much, Jay. I’m so happy to be here today. Who doesn’t like talking about themselves and maybe reflecting on their own history and their professional life.

Jay Lemons:

Well, and you are at a precious point in reflection as you count down the final couple of months of a life that you have led and the extraordinary accomplishments that have taken place at SUNY Oswego. The growth and development is really a remarkable legacy that you’re leaving.

One of our goals for this program is to ask leaders to do exactly that, to reflect and think about your own pathway, with a hope that something in your story may be helpful or inspiring to our listeners. And so I’d love for you to talk about people, places, events that really helped to define your pathway.

Deborah Stanley:

I think I would have to start with maybe attributes that are either generic or genetic or God given, if you will, because if you looked on the surface of my life, at least until I went to college and law school, you might not say I was headed in this direction. By the time I was 19 years old, I had two children, and I was married. So I left high school and did not go immediately to college.

I followed a husband to law school on the Syracuse University campus. And was an incredibly exciting time in the early ’70s when things were happening everywhere. And things were certainly happening for women everywhere. And I was here immersed in this eclectic environment of people who were traditional age graduates, but also those who were returning from Vietnam with full families.

And I was living amongst them right on the Syracuse University campus. And you can understand what was happening in my world. I was growing and developing in ways that were expanding my mind and my heart beyond anything imaginable in my earlier life. And that really set me on a course that was a bit different, but I think it was the attribute of stubbornness that kept me going when I was younger.

I don’t think of it as stubbornness. I think of it as stick-to-it-iveness. I’m a determined individual. If I can’t go easily alongside, I go through up or around, whatever it is. And I hugely plan it out pretty well so that it is a course that takes a natural course and also is beneficial all the way around to whatever object I’m seeking.

But my parents might have called me stubborn at the time. Luckily, I integrated that as a person who really wanted to get things done. And even at that age, when I had the opportunity, finally, to go to college and to go right onto law school, full-time, both of them, I think those attributes took me there.

And that’s really where this journey started, the journey of making sure that I could live the ideals I was learning and that I was gravitating toward, especially, as a woman in the society I was learning about. And I had a daughter and a son, and it was very meaningful to me to move in those direction. So there were people along the way, certainly, my parents, wonderful people.

My story sounds a little tragic, doesn’t it? Two children by the age of 19. Well, I happened to have parents who never really gave up. Anytime I turned around, they were there and they were taking children off for a few days while I studied or coming in to bring food. And they traveled to do that, sometimes over 90 miles. So I had help along the way. But I had professors who understood, especially female professors.

And there were very few of them at the time, but they put their hand out and brought me along. And that was very important to me. And what was mainly important was that I saw that as an example, not just to help, for me, but I integrated it as something that I could learn to do later in life. So as I think back, I’m awfully glad about the turns and twists that my life took, but I’m also so grateful for the people whose lives passed my path along the way.

Jay Lemons:

That’s spectacular. I was thinking as you were describing stubbornness, and you mentioned it being genetic, that perhaps there was some parental impact, but I also hear the importance of their continued faith in you and support for you. And so thank you for sharing all of that. None of us make these journeys alone, that’s for sure.

When you think back to the mid ’90s, when you became the executive leader, and you think about today, are there differences in the skill sets that are needed for people to be successful in the presidency in your mind, or is it more the same? The question I ask myself often is, would Father Hesburgh be successful today?

Deborah Stanley:

I think so.

Jay Lemons:

I do too.

Deborah Stanley:

I really do think so. I think insight, compassion, putting other people’s interests at the forefront, really vesting and investing in the experiences of other people and listening well are so important in our roles as leaders. We can’t leave that behind. I think about this a lot. I think about how I also think about it often in reference to what pop culture thinks of as leadership.

And I’m going to call it pop culture because I’m going to diminish it a little bit rather than just culture. So when you talk about leadership, often people think in a kind of male dominated way that leadership is decisive, that leadership is fast, that leadership is blunt. That leadership just overturns everything and makes a definitive statement.

And I don’t necessarily think of that as leadership. One of my mantras has always been, let it steep. And I say that to people all the time. And I got that from a former provost who was not provost when I became provost myself, but he happened to stop by to talk to me one day. And he said, “You know, that pile I see over there.” He said, “Why don’t we put it behind you?”

And I said, “Because I have to get to it. I have to get answers out there.” And he said, “When?” I said, “I think yesterday.” And he said, “Why don’t you put it behind you? Do a little experiment for me, put it behind you. And three weeks from now, pick it up and tell me which one of those things was really a problem because you didn’t answer it immediately.”

And I didn’t do it for all of them, but I did it for great many of them. And it was a revelation to me that I was thinking differently about many things, I had more understanding, I had more information, my analysis was a little bit different, it was broader. And I was going to make a better decision or a better recommendation to the president because I had waited a little longer.

So that was really informative for me to take that to heart and think about, what is leadership? Do I have to conform to what people are demanding is the optics of leadership? Or should I really take heart and doing it the way that will probably lead us down a path to the best solutions? And hopefully, I go in that direction. Now, sometimes of course you have to act with urgency in an emergency situation, but discerning that is also important.

Jay Lemons:

That is a powerful lesson. And I agree 100% with you. And there’s the old tale of importance in urgency, and one of the things that I observed in my years in the presidency was that often other people’s sense of urgency didn’t match or meet the level of importance. And so yeah, that is really fabulous. I love that as a takeaway.

And especially as I think about, an important audience for us is the hundreds of people who’ve been through our AALI leadership programs, that consuming that and preserving that is… Thank you for that morsel. More than a morsel, that might be a main dish even. When you think about what makes a good leader, and let me be clear, by good I don’t mean grade B, but I mean virtuous and effective and ultimately able to demonstrate results of successful. What comes to mind?

Deborah Stanley:

Well, I read Jim Collins. You probably read Jim Collins too.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

Deborah Stanley:

And I agree with a lot about what he says about great leaders, because humility is an absolute essential. It’s not the demonstration with humility. It is the fact that life is going to present you, at the top of any organization, with enough reflection that you are not going to like what you see.

There are going to be people out there who are going to reflect you back to you, who are just not going to be who enamored with what you do or what you say or who you are. And you have to be able to absorb that with all of the others who will give you great credit and deserved, as you know, deserved accolades for what you do.

So I think the humility to do both, to understand that this is a job, that it does take work, it takes action, it takes interest and learning on the job. Compassion, because you work with other people. And it takes dealing with the wins as well as losses, the successes as well as the failures, in pretty much the same way. And for me, I think of that as a person who can be sustainable over the long-term as a leader.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. Again, I really appreciate that. Yeah. The Level 5 leader, Jim Collins, and that humility is… And it is. One of my very dear friends early on said to me, “You have to have tough enough skin that you can take a lot of poking, and yet don’t let it become so tough that you don’t feel the sticks that you need to pay attention to.” It’s that hard and soft. So it’s also not something you do alone. And I know how important those that you have worked with have been. When you’re creating a team, what do you look for in those leaders?

Deborah Stanley:

I look for a person who can say no to me, that’s really essential. It is an essential quest when I’m interviewing anyone, especially for vice presidency. That this person can make independent judgment and have the confidence in their judgment to argue their point of view whilst still knowing that might not be the winning point of view, that may not be where the organization goes.

So they have to have that peace also, that humility that says, “I’m going to give it my best try because I need to offer this organization.” Someone who values the organization and the people of the organization so much that they wouldn’t hold back for their own safety, for their own amelioration of the risk. They would put it on the table and then talk it through and be willing to accept the outcomes.

That’s really important to me. Someone who understands that an organization is the interplay of people, not the hierarchy of people. It is, where you are in the organization is certainly important, but it is not about advocacy always. It is about understanding and helping to make the judgements that are best for the organization.

Jay Lemons:

Wonderful. I would love to have you offer up advice for those folks who may be discerning whether leadership is for them or aspire to leadership. What advice would you give new leaders?

Deborah Stanley:

Say that again.

Jay Lemons:

What advice would you give to new leaders?

Deborah Stanley:

Oh, take your time. Be optimistic.

Jay Lemons:

Yup.

Deborah Stanley:

I think a lot of new leaders come in, not all new leaders, but I believe that, again, we are responding to a culture that says to us, “We brought you into change, pick out the warts and get rid of them.” And if you so focus on the warts, you have lost your opportunity to affiliate with the institution or the organization that you need to fall in love. And it is like falling in love.

Jay Lemons:

It is.

Deborah Stanley:

And once you fall in love, how differently you go about picking out those areas for improvement. And what a different out comes of that, because you have a different kind of respect for the organization and the people of the organization. So I say to people, fall in love with where you are. Love every piece of it.

And then start to work with people about making it better. Don’t focus on what is wrong immediately, because that will be what they forever think of you and what you will forever think of the organization.

Jay Lemons:

I love that. Yeah. Bloom where you planted. It is the very best way to move, institution to higher learning forward is to love them forward. Not to beat them forward. And you’re so right, there are elements about these processes of transition where we take stock and we think about, okay, where do we want to get stronger? What do we need to do?

And those are really powerful words, of taking your time and falling in love. Wonderful contribution. Let me move us into a little more of a lightning round where the questions are shorter. You can answer with whatever length you wish. Who’s had the most profound influence on you?

Deborah Stanley:

I think it is maybe generational. That is there’s, in these 10 years, someone’s had profound inspiration for me. Certainly, the first president I worked for and the only president I worked hand in glove with, Stephen Weber. Who kind of picked me out of the faculty and brought me in as executive assistant to the president and gave me thatch to see, from the presidential suite, what goes on there.

Which was eye-opening to say the least, mind-blowing in many ways. He certainly had a profound effect on me because he had so many of the qualities of optimism and falling in love. And yet taking this time making analytical decisions and such. He certainly had a profound effect on me.

My parents had a profound effect on me because of the way they were constant supporters. And I knew the benefit of that, when there is unconditional support, unconditional love, so much good can come of that. Especially, if you are in a situation where you can improve and you can get better. So those are very important.

But I would say there are faculty who also make a difference in my life. And right now we have some faculty leaders at our institution who I admire so much for their measured way of addressing some of the issues before us, of their deft way of handling some of the more explosive things that happen around the institution. And yet their real authenticity in presenting me with what they see as an honest assessment.

Jay Lemons:

That’s fabulous. I worked with a colleague who once said, “We all benefit when we have loving critics.”

Deborah Stanley:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. That deafness and that honesty. But it also sounds like you’re really talking about a quality that expresses something about the campus culture of a really salutary nature because you said the way they choose their words, and that does matter for all of us. Is there a book that’s had the most significant influence on you?

Deborah Stanley:

Oh, a book. A book. I don’t know if there’s a book.

Jay Lemons:

Well, you can mention more than one.

Deborah Stanley:

I suppose. You won’t know it, The Women’s Room by Marilyn French. There are number of feminist books out there that have had-

Jay Lemons:

Fabulous.

Deborah Stanley:

… absolutely significant impact on my life because it is something that I do read a great deal in that vein. I read about higher education, but I don’t always take my cues from higher education texts. I take my cues and apply them to higher education from whatever I happen to be reading. I’m not much of a fiction reader.

Occasionally I read fiction, but more so I like to read about organizational philosophy. I like to read about organizational change, organizational success. I like to read about current events. I like to read biographies, a great deal also. So I don’t know if I could pick out one.

Jay Lemons:

That is perfectly fine. Next question on my list of shorter questions is do you have a fondest memory of your undergraduate experience? And you’ve already shared something, in a way, of being an undergraduate with children. So these two could mix.

Deborah Stanley:

For an assignment, rather than write an assignment, I actually acted in Tristan and Iseult. In order to get out of the written assignment.

Jay Lemons:

I love it. I love it. How about a favorite campus tradition at Syracuse or at SUNY Oswego, the two places that you have been rooted?

Deborah Stanley:

Oswego, it is Torchlight. We have a tradition of greeting, a convocation if you will, of greeting students with a Torchlight Ceremony on their first night on campus, where we actually light real candles. And we do it from the torch of learning. And it’s a short ceremony, but it’s very meaningful, and that we say, “The next time you will be part of this ceremony will be on the eve of your graduation.”

Jay Lemons:

I love it.

Deborah Stanley:

And then we do it again on the eve of their graduation so that they can pass the torch on. And it’s very special. Students don’t miss it. You think that they’re maybe jaded and they won’t come, but they pack the place.

Jay Lemons:

That’s spectacular. And what a neat tradition book-ending their experiences on campus.

Deborah Stanley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jay Lemons:

So you were trained as a lawyer. If you hadn’t worked in higher ed, what would you have done? Or I almost could flip this and say, how did a lawyer fall into teaching at SUNY Oswego? Pick your pick.

Deborah Stanley:

I wasn’t career goal directed, there was a position that opened up. Literally, the male chair of the department, which was accounting and law, said to me, “We have to hire a woman. We don’t have any women in tenure track position.” I was the first woman tenured in the business. I wasn’t being-

Jay Lemons:

How?

Deborah Stanley:

…hired with tenure, I was being hired for a tenure track position. And I said, “Well, I don’t know. I have taught a little bit while I was in school to get a little extra money in the summer. Maybe I’ll come and teach in the accounting curriculum for a year.” And he convinced me to take the tenure track position anyway.

So I took the tenure track position and I fell in love. And I thought, this is just wonderful. I passed the bar exam and I started practicing a little and I thought, I don’t like this as well as I like teaching. So I went back to teaching, and that’s it.

Jay Lemons:

Can you imagine another pathway, unchosen?

Deborah Stanley:

I would imagine I would’ve ended up in a not-for-profit anyway. I would’ve ended up at, contracts is my area, so I would’ve ended up somehow in negotiation and working with people directly. And I would’ve ended up in a not-for-profit somewhere. Doing something like that.

Jay Lemons:

Yup. I want to ask you, I understand that there has been an extraordinary gift commitment made to name a building in your honor. As you face these next few months, talk a little bit about the meaning of knowing there’s going to be a Stanley Hall on the campus of SUNY Oswego.

Deborah Stanley:

My whole family was present last week when it was dedicated. The chancellor was here, members of the board of trustees were here. It is extremely moving. I had no idea it would be that moving to think about that being here and in perpetuity is amazing to me, but just the gratitude of the donors. I will tell you one really interesting fact, that many of the donors were students of mine.

And they are, of course, accountants, some of them, who have done well in the world. And so grateful to them. That money will endow that building, which is a significant building because it needs high-end equipment. It needs all kinds of things. And it is often difficult for the campus to keep up the equipment, and now with the endowment will be able to do that.

Jay Lemons:

Well, that’s incredible, to have former students who have done well, and with that have done good by way of boosting their alma mater and honoring someone important in their lives. That doesn’t get much better than that, Deborah.

Deborah Stanley:

It doesn’t get much better than that for me either. It is incredible and humbling.

Jay Lemons:

Yes, yes, yes. One of our traditions here on Leaders on Leadership is we like to close by asking our guests to share with listeners, in your own words, speaking from the heart, those qualities, the organizational DNA, the organizational culture that has made SUNY Oswego the place that has kept your attention, your love, your devotion and your leadership over more than four decades.

Deborah Stanley:

I think it’s student centeredness. And I was struck by that before it became a catch word in higher education, when I first went out to speak to alumni, maybe who graduated in the ’30s and ’40s, when I was first president. And they talked to me about what the institution meant to them and how their professors cared about them right through the depression and through World War II.

Many of the men had to step out and go to war and come back. And there were, of course, this happens with many, many colleges and universities, were many couples formed on those college campuses.

Jay Lemons:

Indeed.

Deborah Stanley:

The women graduated first, waited for the men to come back from war and sustain them while they were doing it. But I heard over and over again, stories that I could relate to that still existed on the campus. And I would say, I think that still happens. I think this place, you will still recognize the place if you come back because they’re a new faculty, but they still do the same thing. They still care about students.

Students are still the center of their universe. And that was to me the driving force. And it also became the concept by which we renovated both the programs of the institution and the physical spaces of the institution. So today, it is a living, breathing concept for the institution that the lens we use is how does this affect the student experience today and how will it deepen their learning for tomorrow.

Jay Lemons:

Wonderful, wonderful answer. And I know it’s the sort of place that you have had an incredible impact on and have helped steward and maintain that dimension of its culture. And makes you wonder, how did that come to be? Because we have many such institutions, but we have others that aren’t so much with that sort of singular focus on our students and their experiences.

Deborah Stanley:

Time.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

Deborah Stanley:

Time was a huge benefit to me. And I said this last week, when I addressed the luncheon. That I have been so blessed to have time, time to plan, time to prepare, time to gather resources, time to fail and time to regroup. And that is not always accorded to an administration or a president, and I have had the benefit of all of that.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you for that. Thank you for all of this. It’s been just a joy to have you on Leaders on Leadership, Deborah. I value your insights and your wisdom. And I’m deeply grateful for your friendship and for sharing the journey with you as a wonderful, wonderful leader in American Higher Education. And I say thank you for this opportunity to talk, but thank you for the extraordinary service that you have provided.

Deborah Stanley:

Thank you so much, Jay. I really enjoyed this very much.

Jay Lemons:

Well, it’s been a joy for me and I hate to draw it to an end. I want our listeners to know that we welcome suggestions and thoughts for leaders we should feature in upcoming segments. You can send those suggestions to leadership podcasts at academicsearch.org. You can find our podcast on the Academic Search website and wherever you find your podcasts. Leaders on Leadership is brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute.

Together, our mission is to support colleges and universities during times of transition and through leadership development activities that serve current and future generations of leaders in the academy. Deborah, special joy. You’ve brightened my life today, and I know how many lives you’ve brightened over many decades there. Thank you again for being our guest on today’s show.

Deborah Stanley:

Thanks Jay.