Leaders on Leadership featuring Dr. John Bravman, President of Bucknell University

Episode Transcript

Jay Lemons:

Hello, and thank you for listening. I’m Jay Lemons. Welcome to Leaders on Leadership, brought to you by Academic Search in the American Academic Leadership Institute. The purpose of our podcast is to share the stories of the people enforces that have shaped leaders in higher education and to learn more about their thoughts on leadership in the academy.

I am delighted to be joined today by Dr. John Bravman. John has served as the 17th president of Bucknell University since 2010. Under his leadership, Bucknell has made significant strides in advancing its mission as one of the nation’s top liberal arts colleges and universities. Before arriving at Bucknell, John spent 35 years on the West Coast at Stanford University where he held multiple leadership roles, including being the Freeman-Thornton vice provost for undergraduate education. There, he led efforts to enrich the undergraduate experience at one of the world’s premier research institutions.

During his tenure at Bucknell, John’s championed initiatives focused on academic innovation, enhancing access to education and a deeper connection between the university and its surrounding community. Most notably, he led the university through its most ambitious fundraising campaign and established Bucknell’s third college, the Freeman College of Management.

John is well-known for his advocacy for undergraduate research in his dedication to fostering an inclusive campus environment. John earned his bachelor’s, master’s, and doctoral degrees in material sciences and engineering from Stanford University and has received numerous accolades for his work as an educator, researcher, and leader.

I’m really happy to say, welcome to a friend and a neighbor here in the Greater Susquehanna Valley of Pennsylvania, John Bravman. John, I’m struck by the fact that you are a rooted person. You grew up a New Yorker, you landed in Palo Alto at Stanford, and were there all those years, and how happy and what a great thing it’s been that you and Wendy and your boys have called the Susquehanna Valley home since 2010. Wow. Thank you for blooming where you’re planted and that really has made a difference in the life of Bucknell.

John Bravman:

Well, Jay, thank you so much for your invitation. Great to see you. When you said I was rooted, I thought you were going to say uprooted because as you say, I’ve moved across the country and almost all the way back. But I am delighted to be here and thrilled to have this opportunity to chat with you about leadership in higher education.

Jay Lemons:

Well, thank you for that and I really mean it as high praise. I often think of academic work, especially in administrative leadership as sort of nomadic work. So, to have been in that few, a number of places says something to me about you, and maybe we’ll learn more about what it reveals in the course of our conversation.

So, I’m going to begin this way. One of our goals for the program is to really ask leaders to do some reflection. Think about your pathway to leadership with a hope that some of what happened to you might be helpful and/or inspiring to others. And so, John, share with our listeners whatever you would want to about the people, events, opportunities that have really shaped and forged you as a person and a leader.

John Bravman:

Well, thanks for that great opening question, Jay. And let me preface my answer by saying, I promise no false humility here. You would not have predicted that I would be talking to you in my 15th year as Great American University president.

I’m a first-generation college student, second generation American. I went to college in 1975, as you say, at Stanford. But the truth of the matter is, there are many accidents and almost could have been, should have been along the way. I would say that a story I’ve told to literally thousands of people is that first of all, everyone recall in 1974, ’75, there was no such thing as the internet. And quite honestly, I had never heard of Stanford University ever. And I had never been west of the East Coast of New Jersey. I’ve never been on an airplane.

Jay Lemons:

Wow.

John Bravman:

But the summer after my junior year in high school, a great friend took a family vacation to California and came back with tales of tall redwoods, the Pacific Ocean, and this place I never heard of called Stanford. And he said, “We need to go to Stanford. It’s fantastic.” And so, I said, “Okay, I’ll apply.” And it’s really not much more than that.

Now, the truth of it is this, however, growing up on the East Coast and being kind of a nerdy scientist little kid, what do you want to do in the ’60s? You want to go to MIT. You want to go to MIT.

Jay Lemons:

You want to help us win the space race?

John Bravman:

Yeah, that’s right. That’s one of my early memories. I watched all the space race. I built models of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo spacecraft and all that. Well, to make a long story short, I did not get into MIT and I was devastated. And so, I ended up going to Stanford for something that has really deeply affected the way I lead this university, and also even work at Stanford. Believe it or not, it was the only school my parents could afford.

So, early on, I learned about access and financial aid. So, lo and behold, I get into Stanford almost truly by accident. Another thing I can tell you, I never studied in high school. And so, and I was smart enough I guess, to do well enough that I didn’t have to. That was not good preparation for Stanford. And here’s the part of this story I want others to think about. I almost flunked out. I was totally unprepared for the social life or dormitory life, but certainly the academic life.

And so, I learned a lesson there about preparation and hard work and studying that at least I’ll claim came fairly naturally to me. I’ve always been a hard worker. I just didn’t have to work in high school, and I learned that was not going to be good enough at a place like Stanford. I was planning on being an electrical engineer and a computer scientist, which of course, Stanford is very, very famous for Silicon Valley and all that.

But in my sophomore year, I took a class in introductory material science and changed my majors. And again, if you know me at that time, that kind of change sounds trivial, I suppose, but was scary for me. But I learned after the fact that sometimes being scared and taking a risk is really important. I fell in love with that and that became, of course, my entire scientific and teaching career. But it was also a third lesson or a fourth lesson. There was a brand new faculty member teaching that class and he became a mentor to me. He ended up becoming my doctoral advisor later on, and I’m still in touch with him, Robert Sinclair at Stanford.

And so, the importance of mentorship and advising and paying attention to students, and of course, the context of Stanford is different than here, given the size and scope. And many people don’t even know this, far, far, far many more graduate students and undergraduates there. It’s a research institution. But anyway, he helped me a lot. And when I decided to apply to graduate school and said, “Well, I’ll stay a fifth year for a master’s degree, but I really don’t know how I’m going to pay for this, my parents can’t.” And he said, “I don’t want you to apply for a master’s degree. I want you to apply for a PhD, because we’ll pay your tuition, and in fact we’ll pay you a salary.”

And so, again, that’s probably the best single piece of academic advice that I’ve ever received. And so, that launched me on my career and I ended up with two principal advisors, one in electrical engineering and one in material science. And in my fourth year of my five-year PhD program, a position opened up in my own department in a field that was closely related to mine and perhaps emblematic of the low self-esteem I struggled with, and to some extent still do. I remember thinking, Jay, I wonder who’s going to get this. And I asked my second advisor, his name is Jim Plummer, one of the most famous electrical engineers in the world. And he said, “I want you to apply.”

Jay Lemons:

Wow.

John Bravman:

And wow, right? And so, there you go. And I could tell many more stories like that, but learning from struggle, learning from mistakes, seeking out and pondering and sometimes accepting advice, which seems perhaps even crazy at that time, the role of mentorship, mentors in one’s life in academe, and I’m sure elsewhere, those were some of the lessons I learned.

And I ended up staying there for 26 years on the faculty, nine years as a student and 26 on the faculty. I’m very proud of the fact that a research institution, I won eight teaching awards, and you would definitely not have predicted that. My father, who was not educated but was incredibly smart, always hassled me about being too quiet and reticent and being very nervous in front of crowds.

He bought me a reel-to-reel tape recorder in fourth grade because I had a speech impediment, and he made me read books into the microphone and listen to myself to improve my speech. But if you said that boy or that teenager is going to be a teacher at a great university and in fact win awards, you would have thought whoever said that was crazy.

So, the pain of failure and this fear of failure I should say, but also the hard work of doing well at something I learned. And I’m proud of the fact that I learned it well, and I taught undergraduate and graduate students at Stanford some really dry boring subjects like crystallography, but they have to be taught and I’m proud that I overcame those things.

So, I’ll stop there, but say that in overcoming some of those things, I’m actually still the same person. I’m still an introvert. I’m still fairly shy and reticent. But if I’m supposed to be there, at least if I’m on stage as it were, now as president, then as a professor, I learned to overcome those things. So, truly from my heart, for anyone who cares to listen, Jay, if I can do this, a lot more people can do this than they might think. I’ve overcome a lot. I know my own weaknesses. We can talk about that. But through hard work, people can overcome a lot more than they typically think.

Jay Lemons:

John, thank you so much for sharing and for sharing so earnestly and openly, it makes me think a little bit about academic search, sponsored some research done that was released this fall and around the competencies of successful presidents. And hey, guess what? One of those competencies is resilience. It is grit. It’s that ability to overcome challenges and higher ed leadership today is more challenging perhaps than it’s ever been, but you just described a significant reservoir for resilience as a part of your journey, which I think is meaningful.

John Bravman:

Yeah, that word grit, you hear a lot these days, it’s sort of trendy. But that’s not pejorative. I think it’s a great descriptor of not just academic leaders, but people who are not even leaders, but not leadership positions, I mean. But having grit and determination and resolve, boy, that will serve you well both professionally and personally, just about anywhere.

Jay Lemons:

It absolutely will. By the way, I think there’s an element of the academic research that traces its way back to Stanford and research are there, interestingly enough. I want to, before I jump into this though, I have always struck by, so when you went to Stanford, not to review the dates again, but Stanford is 250 years younger than Harvard.

John Bravman:

Oh, at least.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

John Bravman:

Yeah.

Jay Lemons:

So, 1885, 1636. So, I often think about the graph of the rise of an institution and you were there when the trajectory and the amplitude of that curve just shot almost straight up. And it makes me sometimes think about, okay, and this is not to diminish the other hallowed incredible institutions in our country, but where is Stanford in 100 years from now? I mean, if that trajectory stays as it is, it will likely be the most significant and important institution of higher learning in the world.

John Bravman:

Well, first of all, as you say, and I’ll ask everyone to remember this. I’ve said a thousand times that there are large numbers of great institutions of higher learning in this country, and many of them share mission, vision and values or what have you. They are distinct in a number of ways. But having been at Stanford for 35 years, I mean, I love the university and when it’s hurting, I’m hurting. And when it’s doing well, I’m exciting and celebrating.

I think part of what I learned in reading about Fred Turman, who really set Stanford on its course World War II era, and coming out of that, and not just, but in part because of the nascent what became known as Silicon Valley. But when I was there in the mid-70s forward, people recognized, of course, the great institutions on the East Coast and elsewhere. Certainly, Harvard and Princeton and Yale, but also MIT.

And so, people talked, and I would say with drive and grit and determination, but also with a measure of humility, our job is to propel Stanford to become Harvard and MIT combined, right? And so, that was a gutsy call, and I’m not here to say that’s what it is now, but that was almost unthinkable that anyone would have the chutzpah to say that. But I mean, that was clearly stated. And, of course, a lot of the east to west movement had already happened in a lot of places, not as much as now.

But so, I grew up in this milieu of not insecurity or feeling second best, but not afraid to strive. And I think not afraid to strive is something I picked up at Stanford. Even athletically, Stanford plays as many sports as any school in the country, I think except UCLA 36. And they’re not a powerhouse in football or basketball. Those sports, they won the Rose Bowl once or twice. But in most Olympics, if Stanford was a country, we’d win the medal count.

And so, I saw even appropriately with maintaining high standards, academic standards, even in the athletic domain. So, I learned about fighting and grit and determination and being who you are and not trying to be somebody else. Later, when I was in charge of undergraduate education as the vice provost for 11 years or 13 years, whatever it was, frankly, we thought a lot about what Yale was doing because we thought it’s a different type of school than Harvard. And we thought things that they do very, very well there we need to emulate.

And so, it doesn’t always have to be invented here, learn from others and make it work in context that your institution, it’s interesting. Rick Levin was the president of Yale then, and his son John is now the president at Stanford. And I haven’t looked up, but that may be a first in history. Father-son at two great universities separately as presidents. Anyway, emulate others, make it distinctly yours, learn from mistakes, learn from others. Those are some things I learned there.

Jay Lemons:

Well, thanks so much for that. My longtime Susquehanna board chair, John Strangfeld always said, gave a speech, in fact, that was called Life Ain’t Linear. And one struggles that I… One of the worries I have about a lot of the young people in my own life is this sense that it’s always upward and on and the challenges to be perfect and to have the opportunity to gain admissions to those most selected places, miss out on some of the non-linearity that… And again, I’m just picturing your own dad filled with hopes and dreams for you and a determination to want to be helpful. But wow, buying a reel-to-reel tape recorder, that’s a significant commitment.

John Bravman:

I still have it because I can’t bear to throw it away. It’s a Panasonic. It doesn’t even play seven-inch reels, which were the standard. It only plays five, but I still have it and it still works. That’s how much it meant to me.

Jay Lemons:

And that’s fun. I sort of on my own little crusade, if you will, I think the word good has been diminished. And here I want to ask you, invite you to talk about what makes a good leader. And I don’t mean grade B, I mean, somebody who embodies virtuousness, effectiveness, and ultimately the ability to move an institution. And that’s the ultimate mark of success.

John Bravman:

Yeah, that’s a great question, Jay. And we both know that probably thousands of books have been written on leadership and a lot of them aren’t very good. I’m not going to sit here and recommend a few, but there are some really good ones. And I would encourage people to look online and look for a consistency of high ratings to find books on leadership. And, of course, there’s an ongoing debate, is leadership learned? Is it teachable or is it who you are or both? And I do think for me it’s both.

And, of course, there are many, many types of leaders, especially given the context in which leadership can be exercised. Leadership is not limited to someone with titular authority to make the military analogy. There have been privates who have been great leaders, and generals who have been pretty mediocre leaders. But for a long time, and I don’t know if this will ever happen, given all those thousands of books on leadership, I’ve been writing a book on leadership in my head, and I’ve talked about it many, many times into varying degrees of specificity. But I generally will point to either three or five or six characteristics of a leader.

So, two groups of three I’ll give you. And they’re probably known in no particular order except for the first one, which I’ll say is absolutely non-negotiable. And that is integrity. Many people who have been successful in someone’s view who don’t have high integrity, I don’t care about that. You’re going to get found out. Someone once said, you can get away with lying if you’re lucky, but you’ll all always know. Absolute integrity to me, which is not absolute perfection, but absolute integrity, a commitment to truthfulness and honesty, et cetera. That has to be top of the list.

The second one, and I think if there was one other word I would use, what do leaders get paid to do? And I think the one word that sums it up best is they get paid to make judgments, and they may have to make in judgments more often than they would like, and maybe more often than not with too little information, too little analysis and too little time. And yet, as they say, “The buck stops here. You have to make a decision.” And judgments are not only about decisions that are more often shades of gray and black and white or yes and no, but you have to make decisions. You have to make judgments. So, integrity and judgment.

And the third one, you touched on it I think already in a way, the word I’ve used always is fortitude. If you need to sleep eight hours a week, you should not be eight hours a day. That was a Freudian slip there. If you need to sleep eight hours a night, you should not be a university president. These are tough jobs, and it’s not just hours of work, of course, as you well know. It’s very hard to get it out of your head.

So, you have to be able to cope with just thinking about work a whole lot more than you might want to want. But it also is long hours. And so, integrity, judgment, and fortitude are my first three that I say are always at the top. Next three are a little maybe not so expected, but to me they’re also very, very important. And the fourth one, I used a clunky word, I don’t know a better word for it, but it is charitability. And that is seeing the best in others. And in a leadership role, and I have to say often a university leadership role, that could be challenging at times. I’m sure many other roles too.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

John Bravman:

Now, being charitable in your opinion of others, especially when you’re interacting with them, but also when you’re not and you’re learning about their opinions or what have you. That can be hard to be charitable. And it doesn’t mean playing the fool. You can’t be the fool and be a leader. But it means, a presumption, time in and time out that in the moment, unless I see clear evidence otherwise, that this person has their own understanding, their best interpretation of facts, their best view on what the best way forward is. And again, that can be hard. And as you know, especially in an academic environment. And it’s probably just as bad in a corporate environment. The difference is tenure.

So, faculty, and then increasingly parents. This is especially over the last decade, 15 years maybe. But even since COVID, they will say to you things that just 20 years ago people wouldn’t ever believe. So, I think charitability is something to keep your own sanity. And also, it’s a great approach to leadership that more often than not, most people will notice.

The fifth one, I would say also might strike people as odd, not humility. And a lot of leaders and a lot of literary giants, they’re not coming to mind at the moment, but have spoken about humility. And again, this doesn’t mean playing the fool, but I remember one quote and I can’t remember who said it, “If you are the smartest person in the room, you’re probably in the wrong room.” And as an educator and someone dedicated to learning, if you don’t evidence that yourself, you’re probably in trouble. But a lack of humility means you’re probably going to, more often than not, misinterpret, mishear, just not understand other people’s point of view, because you’re so willing to tell yourself, “Now, that’s all wrong. I know better. I know better. Let me just talk now.” And that just doesn’t work.

So, humility, I know there are a lot of leaders, George Patton probably wasn’t a humble person, and he was the right person to lead the third army to help end the war. But in general, I think especially in an organization filled with people of different types like academe, humility is important. And then, the last of the six, I use the word percipience, which means being perceptive and particularly learning how to listen to people. But also, reading a situation, reading body language, knowing when you really do have to listen to people. That’s also where the humility comes in because if you’re the smartest person in your room, why would I listen to that fool?

And so, I think listening is incredibly important, but it’s more than that. It’s having a perspective on what’s going on right in front of you, but in the world and how it’s going to affect your organization, the people of your organization, et cetera. So, those six things, integrity, judgment, fortitude, charitability, humility, and percipience, to me, a characteristic of great leaders that I want to follow at least.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you so much, John. And thinking about it, and there may be a whole lot of redundance in this, but I will tell you, I firmly am convinced that leadership is not a solo sport. It’s not an individual sport, it’s a team sport. And so, I want to hear from you. When you’re creating your team, what do you look for in those leaders?

John Bravman:

Well, I look for all of that with integrity being just not negotiable again. Now, of course, we all know interviewing people is very hard.

Jay Lemons:

It’s fraught and it’s a terrible way to make these decisions, but it’s a little like the old Churchillian phrase of democracy is a terrible form of government, just better than any of the others.

John Bravman:

Churchill is one of my heroes. I may be the only person you know that has collected the entire 23 volumes of the official biography of Winston Churchill. It’s on my shelves behind me.

Jay Lemons:

Wow.

John Bravman:

It took years and years because most of them were printed with only 1,000 or 1,500 copies printed, anyway. So, I certainly look for those things. But I think it’s true in academe, quite often at least we don’t have years of experience with someone at the top. So, we’re not promoting from within. And a big corporation, you probably have a better chance of knowing people, but even then, when you put someone at a higher level of responsibility, they can behave differently or perform differently than you thought.

So, interviewing is hard, but I look for those things, nor do I have the luxury of saying, “Well, I’ve got these types of people. Therefore, I need this new type to fill out the team.” I’m hiring vice presidents typically and provost for a certain type of job. And so, I really have to look at their qualifications and their experience within that sector, human relations, development, finance, athletics, what have you. But I have to make… Also, in that interview process and in the reference checking process, I have to do the best I can to try to assess, will they fit with the team.

But again, it’s really hard because people are always on their best behavior when they interview. And I think increasingly, referees are nervous about saying something unless it’s absolutely required. That’s sort of negative. They want to highlight the positive. And so, I look for that elusive fit, and I look for the qualities I mentioned of all leaders. And then, I look for things like, I don’t want to be a stepping stone. I don’t expect everyone to spend their career here. But if I for some reason come to decide this person’s going to be here for two years, I might ask and point-blank about it and try to assess that. But I think it’s good that an institution might be a good place to come from to elevate. That’s good for the institution, but I don’t want that every two years. So, I try to balance that. What’s their term that they have in mind.

Jay Lemons:

Excellent. Thinking of those who aspire to leadership, think about leadership. What’s your advice for those folks?

John Bravman:

Probably, the number one thing that I know I need to do better and always remind myself at. And so, for others as well, those characteristics I already mentioned several times, but it’s that listening piece that I think a lot of rising leaders forget how important that is, forget how important that is. And learn to listen to everyone and not fall in love with your own voice.

And so, I think there’s that. And then, I think there’s the reflection on integrity. Again, it’s just not negotiable. So, you need to reflect on how comfortable are you making judgments. And therefore, especially again in our world, right Jay, I mean, sometimes whatever decision you make, half the people are going to be thrilled or at least some measure of happy, and half are going to be really angry. And so, one of Steve Jobs, founder of Apple’s, great sayings that I’ve used probably too many times, “If you want to make everyone happy, don’t be a leader. Sell ice cream.” And that’s a great quote.

Jay Lemons:

It’s a great quote.

John Bravman:

And I got to know Steve a little bit, not well, but a friend of mine from Stanford days reported to Steve. And so, a brilliant man who one year behind me at Stanford, one year younger, went to Harvard, MBA, had tremendous career. He created the entire Apple Store franchise at Steve’s request. And so, he and I talked about Steve and what a genius he was and how difficult it was to work for him. But that happiness thing, he certainly, he believed in that.

So, reflect on judgment, and then you better reflect on fortitude because leadership is not easy. And that’s why, I brought up the Jobs’ quote. It’s not only making some people unhappy, it’s not a 40-hour a week job. And so, you have to think about that. And my experience at age 67 now is it seems like fewer and fewer people I know are smaller and smaller percentage of people I know can really be deeply honest with themselves.

So, I would tell people to be deeply honest with yourself and pursue your dreams, but be ready to do some of the things we’ve talked about. Be ready to learn actively or passively every single day.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you. We’ll move us into what I call the lightning round, John. There’re shorter questions. You can answer with as much length as you want. Who’s the person or the persons who’ve had the most influence on you? You mentioned a few in the early intro, but are there others that you would raise up?

John Bravman:

Yeah, my father and my mother in a totally different way. But my father, and he was very well-read for someone who didn’t go to college and he pushed in his own way that…

Jay Lemons:

What did he do?

John Bravman:

He made sure we had enough exposure to things that were designed to foster our curiosity, our ability to use our hands as well as our brain. He was not a sports guy. Sometimes, there was frustration and anger growing up that my dad never plays ball with me. It just wasn’t who he was, but he did other things. And so, it was really my father. And then, the two advisors, Robert Sinclair in Material Science and James Plummer in electrical engineering at Stanford that I just have to credit those three people.

My mother loved us unconditionally in ways that are hard to describe that, of course, not unique to her, but just made our life, which in retrospect, when I understood eventually how little my parents made and how we got by, it just made me wonder about the unplumbed depths of parental love.

Jay Lemons:

Love it. Is there a book or books besides the 23 volumes of Churchill that have had the most influence on you?

John Bravman:

Well, I can give you at least three. One is related to my dad. I have at home a copy of his book that he got as like a 12-year-old inscribed with his already laser printed signature. His handwriting was incredible. It was called Through the Microscope, and it was about the wonders of looking through optical microscopes. And fast-forward, five decades, my PhD thesis was written behind by work I did on an electron microscope. I mean, the prescience is unbelievable.

So, Through the Microscope, I forget who wrote it. And then, being that nerdy engineer kid and whatever, I didn’t read that much. My first year in graduate school, I rented a room from someone who went to Stanford and graduated in 1934. Her husband was a Pan Am pilot. She lived all around the world, as the most worldly person I had met. And she subscribed to the New Yorker. And I read a piece in three parts by Freeman Dyson, who was a great Caltech physicist, which became a book in April of 1981, I think, Disturbing the Universe.

And this was my first encounter was a Nobel Prize winning level physicist who could write this incredible prose. And in that same time period, I read maybe for the first time ever, I don’t really count what I did in high school or college, a novel and loved it called The Name of the Rose by Humberto Eco. He was an academic, that was his first novel. His other novels in my opinion, didn’t quite follow up. The Name of the Rose is a very complicated book to read, but I just fell in love with it. So, there’s at least three books for you.

Jay Lemons:

Love it. Looking back to being this East Coast kid experiencing Northern California on the campus at Stanford, do you have a fondest memory?

John Bravman:

Oh, wow. Probably, when I was accepted into the doctoral program. I said before, “I wasn’t very socially apt. I was kind of inept. Not a recluse by any means.” But well, actually, that’s the second place. Now, I’m thinking. My first place was my parents coming to my graduation. They did not come to Stanford for four years, for money reasons they never visited.

When they came out to commencement and seeing and experiencing their pride in what they could recognize as a world they knew nothing about was extraordinary. Just extraordinary. My mother lived to see me become president of Bucknell. That’s the only time that I seen emotions like that. My father died way too young, but he saw, he lived to see me become a professor, and that was unbelievable. A professor at Stanford, oh, my God. So, those are some of my great memories of that institution and of a career in academe.

Jay Lemons:

I love it. Thank you for sharing.

John Bravman:

Oh, of course.

Jay Lemons:

John, if you hadn’t answered the call to be a professor, there are other roads out there. What might you have done?

John Bravman:

Well, I’d probably be working in Silicon Valley, literally, or figuratively at least. My doctoral thesis was in semiconductor materials processing and analysis. And so, companies like Intel and like that. And I collaborated with Intel, so I probably would’ve gotten a job at Intel, and Lord knows where I’d be now, but almost certainly in that field. Growing up, I honestly wanted to be a farmer. And at Bucknell, about three years ago, we started a farm on campus.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

John Bravman:

If you think about food, it touches almost or is touched upon by almost every academic subject, policy, agriculture, everything. My board thought I was crazy, and now almost a thousand students a year participate some meaningful way on our five-acre farm, and it’s been a remarkable success.

Jay Lemons:

Wow.

John Bravman:

So, there, I had to become a university president to become a farmer, I guess. But some of the things I touched on earlier, try things that may sound crazy without being outlandish. Jobs would’ve loved that, by the way. And it’s proven to be a great success.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. One of the things that makes American higher education special in my mind is the place of ritual and tradition.

John Bravman:

Yup.

Jay Lemons:

Is there a favorite tradition at a place that you’ve attended or served?

John Bravman:

Yeah, I love tradition in that way. I’m not a modern man, much more like the characters in The Name of the Rose. I love tradition. We have a candle lighting ceremony here the night before commencement that having done it now 14 times, I still get teary-eyed every time. I can barely talk into the microphone. It’s so beautiful and moving. And more importantly, I can tell that students and 22-year-olds today and what they’re like in general, even with them, you can hear a pin drop in candle lighting.

And we do a similar ceremony twice, once a night before classes start for freshmen, first years, and once the night before commencement. And, of course, they’re tied together, right? And so, people remember that.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, yeah.

John Bravman:

Unfortunately, a commencement, the time of year is such that it’s kind of light out, but in the fall when we do it later at night, it’s dark and people just love it. So, that’s the one that immediately comes to mind. And then, our service of Lessons and Carols is very, very special. We don’t have a massive choir and all that kind of stuff, but it’s still very, very special. It’s packed house three times over, and I’m a person of faith and it means that much more to me. But it’s just a lovely tradition.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you for sharing. One of the traditions that I like to hold up here on this podcast is to invite our special guests to talk about the distinctive qualities, if you will, the sort of organizational DNA that has made Bucknell University the place that has… Place to claim on your heart, your energies, your talents, and your life. Tell us about that.

John Bravman:

Well, as I said before, every school is unique. Sometimes, I hesitate to talk about this because I never want to be misinterpreted. And I do believe higher education in the end is more about, what, you the student put into it than any other factor including where you go. Where you go, of course, can determine a lot of what opportunities you have.

So, what I say about Bucknell is in a nutshell, and I’ll explain this, we’re a pretty big small school. We’re a small school because we teach all of our classes with faculty. Our student-faculty ratios, like eight and a half or nine to one. A lot of our classes are six students, nine students, 15 students, 21 students. We have a couple that are in the 50, 60 range, but these are small classes.

Our faculty are dedicated to advising and mentoring and teaching and educating our students as our large numbers of our staff. Again, I’m not saying that’s unique to Bucknell, but the fact that we have that with three colleges now, that’s a set of opportunities, which is pretty rare. And so, again, not unique, but we’re trying hard to capitalize ever more on that combination of characteristics. And oh, by the way, almost one in five of our students is a division one athlete, and our athletes graduate at or at a higher rate than everybody else. And we played 27 sports.

And one thing I will even risk boasting and bragging about knowing there are lots of really beautiful campuses, Bucknell’s campus in the fall, colors is unsurpassed. It is extraordinarily beautiful. So, there are many other characteristics, of course, that again, are not unique. But the people here, our mission, what we do, the big small school or the small big school, whatever you want to say, and the beauty of our campus, that’s why I’m spending the rest of my career here.

I’ve had opportunities, as you might imagine, Jay, and I’m staying here for the rest of my career. You know this, when I started in 2010, I think the average presidency was nine and a half years. I think it’s well below six now. And given that a term of office is typically five years, that tells you a lot. And there were three presidents at Bucknell in the 15 years before me.

Jay Lemons:

That’s right.

John Bravman:

And so, it has become a complicated job. I’ll say it. It’s become a very difficult job at times. But I have the best colleagues anywhere, and I love my job. I love our mission. And God willing, I’ll be at it for many more years.

Jay Lemons:

John, I can’t tell you how much I’ve appreciated this chance to have a conversation with somebody I’ve known a long time.

John Bravman:

Well, thank you, Jay.

Jay Lemons:

It’s just really a joy and I know that others will benefit from your insights and your wisdom. And I just want to say thank you and let you have a final word here.

John Bravman:

Well, thank you too, Jay, for this opportunity. I love talking about higher education. Our mission everywhere is so utterly important. It’s under duress, and we need people to stay the course. I think how we do, and even to some extent, what we do is going to change. But the overall mission, and I would use a word like sanctity and utter importance of higher education, is not diminished at all. And I want people to have the kind of opportunities that I had, and I want people who’ve had 10 generations go to college to be challenged in higher ed too when they’re of age.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

John Bravman:

And so, I’m just thrilled for this opportunity to share whatever bits of wisdom I can to encourage others and to keep on keeping on. It’s important what we do.

Jay Lemons:

Amen. Leaders, we welcome your suggestions and thoughts for others. We should feature in upcoming segments. You can send these suggestions to leadershippodcast@academicsearch.org. You could find our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever else you find your podcasts. It’s also available on the Academic Search website.

Leaders on Leadership is brought to you by Academic Search in the American Academic Leadership Institute. Together, our mission is to support colleges and universities during times of transition and through leadership development activities that serve both current and future generations of leaders in the academy. It’s been a great joy to have had Dr. John Bravman on our show today. Thank you again, John, for joining us.

John Bravman:

My pleasure.