Episode Transcript

Jay Lemons:

Hello and thank you for listening. I’m Jay Lemons. Welcome to Leaders on Leadership, brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute. The purpose of our podcast is to share the stories of the people and the forces that have shaped leaders in higher education and to learn more about their thoughts on leadership in the academy. I’m especially delighted today to be joined by Sue Stuebner.

Sue began her higher ed career as a women’s basketball coach and an admissions counselor at Albright College in Pennsylvania and now serves as the ninth president for Colby-Sawyer College in New London, New Hampshire. Since her arrival at Colby-Sawyer in 2016, Sue has introduced and implemented two strategic plans, doubled the endowment, established a significant partnership with Dartmouth Health, and introduced 12 new graduate and professional programs along with her colleagues.

Sue has nearly three decades of experience in higher education. How’d that happen, right, Sue? Serving in a variety of leadership positions, including executive vice president and chief operating officer at Allegheny College. Prior to that, she served in progressive leadership positions at Lycoming College, culminating in the role of vice president for administration and planning.

She’s actively engaged in higher ed organizations at the national, regional, and local levels. She currently serves as a member of the Executive Committee for the New Hampshire College and University Council and the Executive Committee for the New Hampshire Campus Compact. She’s also a commissioner on the New Hampshire Department of Educational Commission on Higher Education and a corporator for Mascoma Bank. Sue recently completed terms on the National Collegiate Association of Athletics, Division III President’s Advisory Group, the NCAA group. She has chaired teams for the New England Commission on Higher Education site visits and served as a member of numerous teams for Middle States Commission on Higher Education. She has indeed been a devoted and good citizen. Sue earned her bachelor’s degree in psychology from Dartmouth where she was a member of the women’s basketball team for four years and a captain for one. I appreciate Sue that you and I see eye to eye in more than one way. Sue went on to earn her master’s in education in administration planning and social policy and her doctorate in higher education at Harvard. Her research and professional interests center on leadership, decision-making, the sustainability of our regional private liberal arts, residential colleges and universities. Sue, with all of that having been said, it’s so nice to see you and to welcome you.

Sue Stuebner:

Jay, thanks so much for having me. I’m really honored and looking forward to the conversation.

Jay Lemons:

Well, the honor is ours and the treat is for our listeners. So, one of our goals for the program is to get people to be reflecting a little bit on your own pathway. And talk a little bit about who inspired and who helped shape and forge you as a person, as a leader. And I really invite you to go back as far as you will want to go. My sensibility is that you weren’t always a New Englander. Take us back and tell us a little bit about your own pathway and story.

Sue Stuebner:

Great, absolutely. Well, as you said, I wasn’t always a New Englander. I grew up in the suburbs of Minneapolis, Minnesota. And when I think about kind of leadership and those first opportunities to imagine what I could be, it goes back to grade school and sports. It was an era where Title IX was still kind of gaining traction and a friend Julie and I were the only girls on a number of boy teams for a variety of sports, you know, and I reflect back on that and how amazing those, those coaches, primarily dads, um, who just treated us like student-athletes and, you know, allowed us to feel like we could gain our, um, potential and, you know, really treated us like we could do anything. And that was such a gift.

I had bigger feet than my kindergarten teacher. I was taller than my third-grade teacher. And, as someone who sort of felt like a duck out of water, athletics really helped ground me and that was really important. And so, athletics and academics took me off to Dartmouth. And as you mentioned, I was a psychology major and I also did a senior thesis in creative writing. I followed the advice of a class dean who said, study what you love and everything will fall into place.

But I didn’t know where I was exactly going. And it was my student worker job at the Tuck School of Business where I had two amazing mentors who even though I was doing very routine work, said, don’t just file the applications, look at the margins and see what the admission counselors have to say. And really kind of pointed out to me that higher ed was a career that I could consider. And so that was a huge gift.

And then as you also mentioned, my first full-time job after college was at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania, where I was the head basketball coach and in a full load as an admissions counselor. And it was a school that was really on the brink at that time of financial exigency. They’re doing really well now. But at age 23, I had no idea what that meant. And, you know, I from working directly with students.

I saw what a transformative experience it was for them to be at a private regional liberal arts college. But I also saw how much the finances dictated the mission that didn’t allow for mission to be considered. And so that was troubling to me because I could see how important that school was for students with far less resources than I enjoyed at Dartmouth.

So that was what I focused on in my graduate studies, was how can we sustain private regional liberal arts colleges for students who may not be number one in their class, but have enormous potential, and for institutions that don’t have huge endowments or great wealth. And then I was extremely fortunate to have two stops in Pennsylvania that really helped launch me. I worked for 10 years at Lycoming College for an amazing president, Jim Douthat.

I learned so much from him. My initial position was at the senior level in strategic planning. And then Jim kept giving me more and more things for my portfolio. And it was kind of a motley crew, but it really stretched me in great ways. I had the finance, HR, you know, facilities, but I also had accreditation, athletics, institutional research, and strategic planning. So, a really broad portfolio. And then at Allegheny, sorry, go ahead, Jay.

Jay Lemons:

So, just jump in. You are also one of those people who my memory is, and I may be wrong about this, that you went to Lycoming to serve with President Douthat as executive assistant to the president. Was that your first post?

Sue Stuebner:

It was a new position that they created after their middle states review. So, it was executive assistant to the president and chief institutional planning officer. So, I got to work a lot with the board and then I worked with a couple key committees on strategic planning. So, I got to start to learn about shared governance very quickly.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, well, I’m sorry for interrupting you. So, from one gym in the middle of Pennsylvania to another gym up in the Northeast, Northwest, Northwest. Excuse me. Yeah, yeah.

Sue Stuebner:

Yes, who I refer to as Allegheny Jim. Jim Mullen gave me a great opportunity at Allegheny. I was the executive vice president, and that portfolio included supervising directly all the administrative vice presidents. And, so, I got to practice many aspects of the presidency, but I had an amazing president just down the hall that I could talk to and learn from.

So, you know, I’ve been blessed with just great training and two wonderful mentors, as well as others along the way, and that have prepared me for Colby-Sawyer.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you for all of that. I want to kind of dive back though. You were a very young head coach at Albright and I really appreciate the context that you provided to our listeners that Albright was struggling in that era. And Albright is doing far better today.

We tend to think of life being linear, and it’s either up or down. And yet the real truth is it’s a wavier line for each of us as individuals and certainly in the life of institutions. And I’m a huge believer that it’s leadership that makes a difference.

And so I just appreciate your raising up. A place was here and now it’s in a better place because we have lots of folks that today are feeling the stress and strain of we’re not maybe doing as well as we want to do. And it is possible. It is possible to live it out in another way. So thank you for that. I think that’s an important point that we sometimes lose track of. And especially,

Sue Stuebner:

Absolutely.

Jay Lemons:

I’m really grateful to you as someone who had, you know, you have got as gilded degrees as there are possible to have from Dartmouth and a double Harvard degree. But your love and your devotion has been to these institutions because of that form of experience at Albright. And it just strikes me that there’s something important about your story that is unique. But I want to know how it was you discerned that first love that formed so much of who you are, athletics, coaching, might not be the pathway in the journey. So how did you make the decision to pivot away from that first love to something different?

Sue Stuebner:

Yeah, you know what you mean going away from coaching and admissions? Yeah. So ironically, I was lucky enough to get into Harvard’s master’s program and I picked it because it was nine months long and I figured I would then, you know, leap back into either admissions work or administration or go back to coaching. And it was such a phenomenal year. And I just realized I had so many more questions than answers. And,

I was fortunate to be able to continue in the doctoral program. And that’s where I really continued to fall in love with this school. And again, I didn’t really know what kind of position it was going to lead to, but had some great mentors at Harvard as well. And through my actual dissertation interviews, Lycoming was one of my sites.

I called Jim at Lycoming and I said, you know, you’re going to get a copy of the study soon. And he said, do you know anyone up there that might be interested in this new position I’m creating? And I said, gosh, that sounds really great. And so on to Williamsport, Pennsylvania I went.

Jay Lemons:

Wow, well, I think that that’s also valuable. So, your lead was not identified in the Chronicle or Inside Higher Education. They are important venues, but was really out of a network related to the research you did for your dissertation. Cool, cool. Well, I want to turn us back towards my more conventional pathway here, and just ask you to talk a little bit about what makes a good leader in your mind. And by this, I love the word good, because for me, it really brings to mind virtue and effectiveness, and ultimately, the success of an institution. A clear marker that the institution is stronger than when you inherited it. And so, what makes a good leader for you, Sue?

Sue Stuebner:

Well, there are obviously a lot of important qualities, but one of the best pieces of advice I received before becoming president was to just be myself. So, I think authenticity is really important. My predecessor was a gifted speaker, and you just hung on every word that he said. And I don’t have that same charisma. I have a more understated approach. But you know, the advice I got to just be myself in the role has been really important. I think it’s extremely important to listen to understand. As president, we often see the best and the worst of things that are happening at institutions, and the truth is always somewhere in the middle. And, so, I think it is.

Jay Lemons:

So true, so true. I remember my earliest years as a president, I came home and said to Marcia one day, look, I go away and I talk about how great this place is and every moment I’m spending on campus, I’m hearing about all the things that we’re not doing well, the best and worst. Yeah, exactly.

Sue Stuebner:

Exactly. So, I think you have to be patient and listen, you know, and don’t feel compelled to have to act too quickly because you might not get it right. I think relationship building, like you talked about with Jim Douthat, you know, I think, you know, governance and multiple constituencies is one of the hallmarks of higher education and, you know, building those meaningful relationships across all those different constituencies.

I think is part of the most rewarding part of the job, but also really critical to earn trust. And then, I think even though it’s important to be yourself, you have to have a willingness to work on the things that are not your strengths. And you get a lot of opportunity to do that because there’s a lot of things expected from a president.

Jay Lemons:

That is so true. I think that is one of the ironies of leadership in probably all domains, but we sort of advance through professional competence in the development of specializations. And yet, leadership in a college or university or in a not-for-profit or a hospital or in the military, we have to become generalists again.

Yeah. Hey, when you’re creating a team, what is it that you’re looking for in your leaders?

Sue Stuebner:

Absolutely. Well, on a very basic level, just the content knowledge, I think that’s the first thing. But more importantly, I think at schools like where I work, the regional private liberal arts colleges, it’s really important that vice presidents are able to provide strategic leadership, but also be willing to roll up their sleeves. They don’t have the luxury of having a huge team to do everything for them. And so, you know, we’re lean at these kinds of schools. And, so, they really have to kind of walk both of those paths. Student-centered folks are so critical at these kinds of institutions. People really make the place. And so there has to be an understanding that everything we do, whether you’re in finance or admissions or student development. It’s all in support of our students. You have to be able to advocate for your own area, but also be able to collaborate and see the big picture, which again is a hard thing to walk. Yeah. And then finally, just a sense of humor. The work we do can be so intense. And you got to have someone who can…

Jay Lemons:

Amen. Amen. Yeah.

Sue Stuebner:

…keep you grounded and do that for the team. It’s different people on different days, but being able to step back and laugh at some of the things that we encounter is important.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you for that. Your second bit there about rolling up the sleeves brings to mind my wonderful predecessor at Susquehanna, Joel Cunningham, who was known for describing to members of his team, around here, we got to both be able to conduct the train and shovel the coal. And I think that really captures what small college leaders need to do. We are, you are both at once an executive, but you’re also, boy, if the chairs in a room need to be rearranged, we’re all doing it, right?

Sue Stuebner:

Exactly. I love that description. It’s perfect.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, yeah. One of the audiences that I particularly hold dear in my mind and I’m so grateful for are emergent leaders, new generation of leaders. And I’d love for you to have the opportunity to provide some advice to those new leaders, people who are thinking about or aspiring to leadership.

Sue Stuebner:

I think the first thing that comes to mind is being willing to take on assignments or projects that are not part of your job description. If I had just stuck rigidly to my job description at Lycoming, I never would have had the vast opportunities that Jim Talth gave me. I’m not a CPA or an MBA, but I ended up in charge of the finances. I had a steep learning curve, and I had a great team that I worked with.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

Sue Stuebner:

But I think you have being open to things that might not at first feel logical for your portfolio is really important. You know this one, Jay, I don’t know if everyone shares this, but from my experience, sharing values with the institution and especially the person that you’re going to work for is sometimes more important than the job title. I just think having that congruence is really, really important. I think it’s important for folks to understand your emails will never all be read, and your to-do list will never be done. My niece saw how many unread emails I had once. She’s like, how do you sleep at night? I said, well, it’s just part of the reality. You’re never going to be done. Then I think to be curious, sometimes we can be so quick to judge or to make conclusions and I think it’s just really important that you stay open to the possibilities of situations and then know that all of us fail sometimes. You know I think sometimes you feel the pressure to be perfect all the time and what’s most important is that you just learn from whatever those mistakes are and keep growing.

Jay Lemons:

Well, thank you for that. Back to the perceptions that we have around linearity. It is not all an upward slope. It is ups and downs, and sometimes those downs are triggered by extraordinary events that are well beyond our control. Sometimes they’re precipitated by mistakes that we make.

And finding the learning edges of those and growing from them is really critical. Yeah, yeah. Hey, the higher education process is filled with the daunting challenges facing leaders in American higher education today, what are some of the biggest ones in your mind?

Sue Stuebner:

Well, I think right now it’s somewhat of a perfect storm for the sector that I know and love. The enrollment cliff that we’ve all been talking about for years is here, especially up here in New England. And, one of the things that I’ve been trying to share with my community is that while we’ve always had ebbs and flows with demographics in higher ed, in the past, the percentage of high school students going on to college always increased.

And this time around, we’re actually seeing the opposite. That more students are taking a break or taking jobs that seem like they’re going to pay a high wage or taking different paths. And then we have this lowering confidence in the value of higher ed. So, I think those three things combined are definitely challenges that are complex.

I think we all are trying to find ways to distinguish ourselves in a very competitive marketplace. And I think we all are trying to sort out, you can’t cut your way to success. You have to be creative in generating new sources of revenue so that all of us are very dependent on student enrollment. But what other sources of revenue can you create to diversify what’s coming into the institution?

And then I think the last thing, in the era of social media, something that might be, at first glance, a small institutional issue can blow up to become a regional and national issue. And as you said about things not being in our control, fortunately hasn’t happened here. Well, we did have one incident in the pandemic. But things can balloon so quickly and you don’t always have control of the narrative.

Jay Lemons:

Yes, you know, I’m having a hard time not wanting to respond to each and every point you’re making. You know, but it kind of raises for me a little bit of a follow-up on, you know, you’ve now reached a point in your career where you’re speaking in terms of numbers of decades of your service and leadership. I’d be curious, Sue, if you think leadership today requires new and different skills and knowledge and abilities in the past or if you sense that some of the core qualities needed to be a leader transcend the errors

Sue Stuebner:

I think it’s a little bit a combination of the both, Jay. I think some of the things I talked about earlier about building relationships and being authentic still are very true. But what I find is that the pace is so much quicker given the challenges that we face. And so, governance is a cornerstone of colleges and universities. And at times we have to move quicker than our faculty are used to. And, so, navigating that and being able to honor their perspective and input while also keeping an eye on what’s best for the institution. I think that’s a new skill that folks need to, governance has always been a part of higher ed, but having to move more quickly I think is different. And then I think for better or for worse, again at least in my sector,

You have to have financial acumen. You have to know at least the right questions to ask and to be able to translate those to a board that many of whom do not have a background in higher ed and our finances work differently than their world. So again, you don’t have to be a CPA or an MBA, but you need to at least know what are the right questions to ask.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for every bit of this, Sue. I want to move us into what I call the lightning round. So, you know, if you will, a little more, pardon the interruption approach. The questions are going be shorter. The answers can be as long as you want to make them. So, who most influenced you

Sue Stuebner:

There we go. Yeah, that’s, it’s so hard to pick one person, but when I really reflect on it, I think my grandmother is actually probably the person who influenced me the most. She was one of six children. I have her father’s grandfather clock in my office here. He was a faculty member at Penn back in the early 1900s.

Jay Lemons:

You can name more than one.

Sue Stuebner:

And she did not get an education herself. She married my grandfather early. But she met each of us as grandchildren, all 14 of us, where we were. And she always helped us feel like anything was possible. And that’s such a gift to grow up with that confidence and that support from someone. You know, I’m keenly aware that a lot of folks don’t enjoy that kind of support. And so I’ve…She was just really amazing. And she made great chocolate chip cookies too. Oh.

Jay Lemons:

How long did you have her in your life?

Sue Stuebner:

Well, I’m the youngest by a lot of years in my family, but I did. She, I think she passed away when I was in college.

Jay Lemons:

So, you got to know her as an emergent adult. I think grandparents are truly one of the extraordinary gifts for those who are blessed to have them. So, honor her name for our audience.

Sue Stuebner:

Absolutely. Francis Stubner. I called her Nana and actually her maiden name was Quinn and I have a nephew named Quinn. I think all the cousins were competing for who could have the first son to name them Quinn in her honor.

Jay Lemons:

I love that. Well, thank you for introducing us to her and that gift of meeting all 14 of us where we were and helping us to know that anything is possible. That is the mantra of an educator in my mind is meeting our students where they are and helping them to see a larger world. So, she may not have had the formal education, but sounds like she was an incredible teacher and educator in her own right.

Sue Stuebner:

Absolutely.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. Is there a book that’s had the most significant influence on you?

Sue Stuebner:

Well, I’m going to give you two. One is personal and one’s more professional. The first one is A Tale of Two Cities. And the reason that this book was so influential is that I read it, I think the summer after fourth grade and I had to go very slow, very slow. But I got through it, you know, and it felt like such an accomplishment. And again, I have three older siblings who were, you know, much further along than I was in their educations and places in life. And, so, I sort of felt like a big kid after I got through that, which was exciting. And I also learned about just the power of storytelling. So that was exciting. And then a professional book that has shaped who I am is Reframing Organizations by Bolman and Deal. And it’s really helped me reflect on

You may have a way that you prefer as a leader or a couple strengths, but to be a really strong leader, you have to move between different types of leadership, even the ones that maybe don’t come as easily to you as the others.

Jay Lemons:

Awesome, wonderful titles. I mean, it is, you know, I think I was almost quoting from, you know, A Tale of Two Cities, the best of times are the worst of times. That’s how very often the presidency feels. And it’s an honest assessment and somewhere the truth is in between, as you said. What’s your fondest memory of your Dartmouth experience?

Sue Stuebner:

I had a lot of wonderful moments, but the one that really stands out to me and also relates to my career is I was a good student in high school. I did the worksheets. I was kind of a busy bee, but I didn’t really know what my passion for learning was. My junior fall with Professor Jernstedt, I took the psychology of learning.

And it just opened my eyes to this is what it feels like to love, to learn. And, you know, again, that’s what I hope for every student where I work, that they find that joy of learning and what they’re passionate about. And, so, I switched from an English major to a psychology major. So, yeah, great moment.

Jay Lemons:

Wow. Excellent, excellent. Is there a favorite campus tradition that someplace you’ve attended or served that you’d raise up?

Sue Stuebner:

That’s an easy question. Here at Colby-Sawyer, we were founded in 1837 and dating back to the 1860s. One day each fall at 10:05, the president gets to cancel classes and we all climb Mount Kearsarge for Mountain Day. And faculty, staff, and students, the first week of classes we tie-dye shirts that have a design on them that a student made. And then there’s just…wonderful intrigue about what day it’s going to be and President Sue, is it today? It’s a beautiful day today. So, it’s a lot of fun, amazing sense of community.

Jay Lemons:

That’s awesome. And how arduous is the climb up that mountain?

Sue Stuebner:

It’s pretty steep. It’s only a mile, but the students just go up there so quickly. Some of us on the faculty and staff take a little longer. There is a less steep, longer way to go, but most of us tackle the mile route.

Jay Lemons:

Oh, that’s neat. That’s neat. Really wonderful. Sue, if you hadn’t ended up working in higher ed, what else might have had a call on your soul?

Sue Stuebner:

Well, even though as a psychology major, I convinced the English department to let me do a creative writing project. I always loved writing as a kid and writing stories. And, you know, I always had dreams of being the novelist living on the coast of Maine. So that’s what I’m going to go with.

Jay Lemons:

There you go. Well, you’re not so very far away from the coast of Maine. Are you still are you still doing some creative writing?

Sue Stuebner:

That’s right. Unfortunately no time right now, but you know, hopefully in retirement I’ll get back to it.

Jay Lemons:

I think that’s, you know, that is one of the challenges of leadership. These jobs require so much that we don’t have time for the avocations and hobbies in the ways that we might otherwise. And yet the jobs are so unbelievably stimulating, interesting, challenging, and fulfilling that you can put off that writing. The great novel awaits.

Sue Stuebner:

Yeah, such a privilege to be able to do what we do and work with young people and help transform their lives.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, indeed, indeed sacred work. You know, one of the traditions here on Leaders on Leadership is I really want to close by asking you to talk and share with our listeners the distinctive qualities or the special DNA that makes Colby-Sawyer so very special to you and to those who it serves.

Sue Stuebner:

Well, thanks, Jay. We are located in a small town with great beauty here in New London, New Hampshire. Lots of beautiful lakes and mountains, including a local ski area, Mount Sunapee, that all of our students get free passes to. But at our core, we are a traditional residential liberal arts college. A number of our majors are more pre-professional, and the like, so it’s really the combination of that powerful liberal arts foundation with also helping students explore what they want to do. 100% of our students do internships and they also do a senior capstone, and so with those two requirements, faculty can work closely with them to really personalize their experience within their major.

They may be a biology major, but then what they pursue as an internship and what they write that senior capstone on, you know, really can reflect what their passion is rather than just being a biology major. And we have just an extraordinarily dedicated faculty and staff, and I know every small college says that. But what I love most about being at Colby-Sawyer is everyone is truly committed to the student experience and the growth between first year and senior year.

It’s just extraordinary and many of our students reflect on that themselves. I shake their hands when they come in for freshman orientation. They each walk through the president’s house and start orientation in the backyard. And seeing them in that first day on campus and then seeing them at commencement, it’s just an extraordinary, I’m getting goosebumps right now.

Jay Lemons:

Well, amen to that. You know, Sue, I want to say thank you so much. I am mindful of the privilege of your sharing this time, and especially sharing it in a time where we hope to launch this during Women’s History Month. I’m really grateful to you. I’m also kind of stunned as I sit back and think about, you know, Jim Douthat and Jim Mullen.

And I can’t not raise up, you know, Natalie Rook, an extraordinarily proud and amazingly generous, loving Colby-Sawyer alumna. The ways that our circles have been connected. And, so, it feels really special. But I just really want to say thank you for charting your own path. Thank you for, you know, heeding the call in your own life and for wearing the mantle of, you know, your grandmother, your Nana, Frances Stuebner, in meeting students, young people where they are and helping them to see their ability to have a larger view on the world and an impact on the world. And for all of these insights and the wisdom that you’ve shared with our listeners, I’d say thank you.

Sue Stuebner:

Well, thank you, Jay. This has truly been a privilege. We don’t get a lot of moments to reflect at its presidents, and it was nice just to pause and have this wonderful conversation with you.

Jay Lemons:

Sue, thank you once again. It’s just a joy. And I wish you and Colby Sawyer well. And as you move into the heart of closing season in the admissions world, in a world complicated by FAFSA and the normal pressure. So very best wishes to you. Listeners, we welcome your suggestions or thoughts for leaders we should feature in upcoming segments. You can send those suggestions to leadershippodcast@academicsearch.org. You can find our podcast on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever else you find your podcast. It’s also available on the Academic Search website. Leaders on Leadership is brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute. Together, our mission is to support colleges and universities during times of transition.

and through leadership development activities that serve current and future generations of leaders in the academy. Again, our special joy today has been to have President Sue Stuebner on our program. Sue, one final thank you again for joining us.

Sue Stuebner:

Thank you so much.